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Warren Mead wmead at virtualiron.com
Fri Dec 23 11:27:00 EST 2005


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Warren Mead

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Today's Topics:

   1. Advocacy - Was: Re: Window dressings - a maddog story (Was: Any
Opinions
       on SuSE 10.0 vs other Distros) (Brian Chabot)
   2. Re: Any Opinions on SuSE 10.0 vs other Distros (Jerry Feldman)
   3. Re: Help me avoid Exchange (Neil Joseph Schelly)
   4. Re: Help me avoid Exchange (Drew Van Zandt)
   5. Re: Advocacy - Was: Re: Window dressings - a maddog story (Was:
Any Opinions on SuSE 10.0 vs other Distros) (David Ecklein)
   6. Re: Alternative to k3b? or why is everything soooooo slow? (Ken
D'Ambrosio)
   7. Re: Advocacy - Was: Re: Window dressings - a maddog story (Was:
Any Opinions on SuSE 10.0 vs other Distros) (Bill McGonigle)
   8. Re: Help me avoid Exchange (Ben Scott)
   9. Re: Advocacy - Was: Re: Window dressings - a maddog story (Was:
Any
       Opinions on SuSE 10.0 vs other Distros) (Brian Chabot)
  10. X memory leak? (Brian Chabot)

--__--__--

Message: 1
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 12:16:50 -0500
From: Brian Chabot <brian at gentlemanrogue.com>
To: GNHLUG <gnhlug-discuss at mail.gnhlug.org>
Subject: Advocacy - Was: Re: Window dressings - a maddog story (Was: Any
Opinions
 on SuSE 10.0 vs other Distros)

Jon maddog Hall wrote:

> So the next Red Hat default desktop was "FVWM95".


You know... FVWM95 is a pretty good approximation of M$Windo$e....

>The difference between windows users and unix users is that unix users
change
>their environment to be what they want....because they can and they
know how
>(or will find out).
>  
>

I had a roommate not too long ago who was quite intelligent but not by
any stretch, a computer guru.  We had some long discussions about
computers though, because I could use her as a guinea pig for usability
testing.  Not being an expert, she was the perfect test to see if the
general public would take to something new.

And you know what? 

She did not want to have a choice.  Whenever I asked something like,
"Which of these XYZ's do you think you'd like to use?" her answer was
always "I don't want to choose anything.  Just give me something that
works"

Now this mentality was completely foreign to me.  I thoroughly enjoy my
choices... and so I have my preferences, but know that others will have
different preferences.  Whether it be E vs KDE vs Gnome or vi vs
emacs... *we* like our choices and *we* like one over another.  But in
the long run, when it comes to advocacy, we need to set defaults and
stand behind them when preaching to the masses.

Long time Linux users and other computer tinkerers and experts will know
how to change the defaults, and I think it should be pretty easy to do. 
Getting new users on board though, we need to fix a standard set of
defaults.  We need to standardise across distros as much as we can, so a
new user can see a disk marked "Linux" and not be shocked by yet another
foreign environment or worse... a myriad of choices the user cares
nothing about.

I think a lot of distros have come close with KDE, and that's a great
thing.  The KDE folks have come a LONG way to making a one-stop-shop for
your desktop needs.  Gnome had the head start but it was too focused
on...  choices.  Great for geeks... not for the common user. 

I no longer show my friends all the nifty desktop choices we have.  
When friends come over and ask to use a computer, I just fire it up into
a KDE session and maximize Mozilla.  When they're done checking their
Yahoo mail or LJ or whatever, I ask if they had any trouble using it. 
They look at me strange... and then I let them know they just used Linux
and it obviously wasn't as difficult as they may have thought.

Brian



--__--__--

Message: 2
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 07:02:33 -0500
From: Jerry Feldman <gaf at blu.org>
To: gnhlug-discuss at mail.gnhlug.org
Subject: Re: Any Opinions on SuSE 10.0 vs other Distros
Organization: Boston Linux and Unix

--Sig_kXTRwZuAaU4xBiw7MAgkekV
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Wed, 21 Dec 2005 10:43:42 -0500
Jon maddog Hall <maddog at li.org> wrote:

> >     I don't have time to keep fiddling with ever-changing
installation
> > procedures and user interface changes.  I want to make money by
running=
  my
> > business applications on the computer, not play with it like a toy.
>=20
> I have seen steady progress with SuSE over the past five years.  That
is =
what
> I want.  Ubuntu, in my estimation, is a fine distribution, and growing
ve=
ry
> fast.  But Ubuntu supported GNOME very strongly at first, and now seem
to=
 be
> supporting KDE, but that may only be an illusion.  It is just too
soon, I=
MHO,
> to make the call of what Ubuntu will be, if "fiddling with
every-changing
> installation procedures and user interface changes" is not the way you
wa=
nt
> to go.
I'm chiming in a bit late. There had been a lot of discussion on the
SuSE list about Gnome and Novell's recent decisions.=20
SuSE Enterprise Linux is going to be standardizing on GNOME as the
default desktop, but they are going to retain KDE and continue to
provide support for KDE on the desktop systems. =20
--=20
Jerry Feldman <gaf at blu.org>
Boston Linux and Unix user group
http://www.blu.org PGP key id:C5061EA9
PGP Key fingerprint:053C 73EC 3AC1 5C44 3E14 9245 FB00 3ED5 C506 1EA9

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--__--__--

Message: 3
From: Neil Joseph Schelly <neil at jenandneil.com>
Reply-To: neil at jenandneil.com
To: gnhlug-discuss at mail.gnhlug.org
Subject: Re: Help me avoid Exchange
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 08:02:48 -0500
Cc: Paul Lussier <p.lussier at comcast.net>

On Thursday 22 December 2005 03:40 pm, Paul Lussier wrote:
> Hi folks,
>
> Up until now I've been fairly lucky in maintaining our IMAP server on
> Cyrus.  However, we've identified a project which we'd like to move
> forward to better construct our mail architecture.  When we proposed
> this project to our VP of Engineering, he rightfully asked the
> question of, "Why should we bother continuing to maintain anything
> related to mail when we have an IT group to do just that?"

Is that the only reason to go forward with this?  If you have something
that 
works, I find it hard to believe that he just decided one day you should

combine with them.  There must be some reason he wants to push you in
that 
direction.

As for interoperability with Exchange from the client side, I've never
had 
problems with Kontact from KDE.  It does the calendaring, address
booking, 
and email without any difficulty.  That said, it's no better or worse
than 
the free alternatives that will likely give you far more flexibility.  

That said, if you're looking just to use IMAP, Exchange can do that and
my 
guess is your boss is concerned you're spending too much time managing
the 
current solution rather than contributing to the purpose of your
department 
(which I'm assuming is not supposed to overlap with the IT group).  If
you 
want to keep things the way they are, convince him there's no overhead
to 
maintaining things as they are.

Honestly, that hasn't been my experience (although limited) with Cyrus -
I 
find it to be a pain in the ass.  I guess I don't really have an opinion
one 
way or the other on this issue aside from a general disgust for
Exchange, but 
hopefully this collection of unrelated points and digressions may help
you 
out.
-N

--__--__--

Message: 4
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 09:25:16 -0500
From: Drew Van Zandt <drew.vanzandt at gmail.com>
To: gnhlug-discuss at mail.gnhlug.org
Subject: Re: Help me avoid Exchange

------=_Part_8715_10719492.1135347916870
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Disposition: inline

Also make sure that the Exchange server isn't retardedly configured to
e.g.
block all incoming .zip / .exe attachments.  While this is argued to be
necessary for security by some IT departments, it's complete hell for an
engineer trying to use the system... heck, .zip and .exe attachments are
most of the reason I use email at all!  (renaming doesn't even work with
some of the brain-damaged configs I've faced, it scans the attachment
for
the magic numbers of compressed files etc.)

--Drew Van Zandt

------=_Part_8715_10719492.1135347916870
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Disposition: inline

Also make sure that the Exchange server isn't retardedly configured to
e.g. block all incoming .zip / .exe attachments.&nbsp; While this is
argued to be necessary for security by some IT departments, it's
complete hell for an engineer trying to use the system... heck, .zip
and .exe attachments are most of the reason I use email at all!&nbsp;
(renaming doesn't even work with some of the brain-damaged configs I've
faced, it scans the attachment for the magic numbers of compressed
files etc.)<br>
<br>--Drew Van Zandt

------=_Part_8715_10719492.1135347916870--

--__--__--

Message: 5
Reply-To: "David Ecklein" <dave at diacad.com>
From: "David Ecklein" <dave at diacad.com>
To: "GNHLUG" <gnhlug-discuss at mail.gnhlug.org>
Subject: Re: Advocacy - Was: Re: Window dressings - a maddog story (Was:
Any Opinions on SuSE 10.0 vs other Distros)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 09:35:34 -0500

Personal confessions and rants of a Linux wannabe-user:

Brian- I feel exactly the same way as your former roommate.  Perhaps it
is
because I have never been a "guru" with respect to operating systems,
even
though a software and hardware veteran since vacuum tube and raised
floor
days.  Many of us then submitted our cards through a window where
someone
else slapped JCL on the deck and worried about the operating system
plumbing.  We focussed our energy on marking up the coredumps that came
back
with our decks for another shot at the problem we were trying to solve.
Now, with PCs, it is different.  We live cheek to jowl with our OSs
whether
we want to or not.

I am not interested in superficial "choices" when it comes to operating
system features.  I just want it to work.  I have enough problems
without
wrestling with those of the operating system, or worrying about any
non-optimal choices I might make with respect to its function.

An operating system that acts out, is largely opaque but obtrusively
irrational, is hard to fix when broken, does not play well with changed
hardware, cannot accept user-written programs without employing
expensive
and largely incomprehensible vendor-supplied shoehorns, presents
gratuitous
options, differences, and incompatibilities with every version,  has
been
the chief drawback of OSs perpetrated by the M$ monopoly.  That is why I
have taken some interest in Linux as an alternative.  Addressing these
objections to Windows will go a long way to spreading popularity of
Linux
beyond those of OS gurus and those with relatively turnkey applications.
It
is not yet clear to me that Linux will be able to do all this, but I am
staying tuned.

Dave Ecklein

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Brian Chabot" <brian at gentlemanrogue.com>
To: "GNHLUG" <gnhlug-discuss at mail.gnhlug.org>
Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2005 12:16 PM
Subject: Advocacy - Was: Re: Window dressings - a maddog story (Was: Any
Opinions on SuSE 10.0 vs other Distros)


> Jon maddog Hall wrote:
>
> > So the next Red Hat default desktop was "FVWM95".
>
>
> You know... FVWM95 is a pretty good approximation of M$Windo$e....
>
> >The difference between windows users and unix users is that unix
users
change
> >their environment to be what they want....because they can and they
know
how
> >(or will find out).
> >
> >
>
> I had a roommate not too long ago who was quite intelligent but not by
> any stretch, a computer guru.  We had some long discussions about
> computers though, because I could use her as a guinea pig for
usability
> testing.  Not being an expert, she was the perfect test to see if the
> general public would take to something new.
>
> And you know what?
>
> She did not want to have a choice.  Whenever I asked something like,
> "Which of these XYZ's do you think you'd like to use?" her answer was
> always "I don't want to choose anything.  Just give me something that
works"
>
> Now this mentality was completely foreign to me.  I thoroughly enjoy
my
> choices... and so I have my preferences, but know that others will
have
> different preferences.  Whether it be E vs KDE vs Gnome or vi vs
> emacs... *we* like our choices and *we* like one over another.  But in
> the long run, when it comes to advocacy, we need to set defaults and
> stand behind them when preaching to the masses.
>
> Long time Linux users and other computer tinkerers and experts will
know
> how to change the defaults, and I think it should be pretty easy to
do.
> Getting new users on board though, we need to fix a standard set of
> defaults.  We need to standardise across distros as much as we can, so
a
> new user can see a disk marked "Linux" and not be shocked by yet
another
> foreign environment or worse... a myriad of choices the user cares
> nothing about.
>
> I think a lot of distros have come close with KDE, and that's a great
> thing.  The KDE folks have come a LONG way to making a one-stop-shop
for
> your desktop needs.  Gnome had the head start but it was too focused
> on...  choices.  Great for geeks... not for the common user.
>
> I no longer show my friends all the nifty desktop choices we have.
> When friends come over and ask to use a computer, I just fire it up
into
> a KDE session and maximize Mozilla.  When they're done checking their
> Yahoo mail or LJ or whatever, I ask if they had any trouble using it.
> They look at me strange... and then I let them know they just used
Linux
> and it obviously wasn't as difficult as they may have thought.
>
> Brian
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> gnhlug-discuss mailing list
> gnhlug-discuss at mail.gnhlug.org
> http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
>



--__--__--

Message: 6
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 09:46:20 -0500
From: "Ken D'Ambrosio" <ken at jots.org>
To: Bruce Labitt <bruce.labitt at verizon.net>
Cc: gnhlug-discuss at mail.gnhlug.org
Subject: Re: Alternative to k3b? or why is everything soooooo slow?

Bruce Labitt wrote:

> [...]
> When I used k3b to burn a SuSE9.3 iso it only ran at a burn rate of 
> 0.4X.  This is somewhat irritating since it is rated as at least a 8x 
> drive when burning +R media.  Worse than taking 2.5 hours to burn a 
> potential coaster is the fact that my system clock was more than 1 
> hour off [slow] after burning a full dvd!

Just for the record: I'd been running Debian (Libranet), and getting 
much the same results.  I just upgraded to Ubuntu, and now I'm running 
at ~2.25x.  A gig in DVD in roughly six minutes.  I'm using k3b, just 
like I had been -- so, either Ubuntu has some nicer defaults, or 
cdrecord (or somesuch derivative) has something else tweaked.  In other 
words, don't despair, just yet.  It's possible, even if I don't know 
exactly what fixed it.

Happy holidays, all!

-Ken

--__--__--

Message: 7
Cc: GNHLUG <gnhlug-discuss at mail.gnhlug.org>
From: Bill McGonigle <bill at bfccomputing.com>
Subject: Re: Advocacy - Was: Re: Window dressings - a maddog story (Was:
Any Opinions on SuSE 10.0 vs other Distros)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 10:21:04 -0500
To: Brian Chabot <brian at gentlemanrogue.com>

On Dec 22, 2005, at 12:16, Brian Chabot wrote:

>  When they're done checking their
> Yahoo mail or LJ or whatever, I ask if they had any trouble using it.
> They look at me strange... and then I let them know they just used 
> Linux
> and it obviously wasn't as difficult as they may have thought.

That's a good story.  I was just reading about the new X.org X11 
release and one of the features buried down at position #87 in the 
release notes is 'multiseat capability'.  Apparently HP/UX has had this 
for a while, but it was harder on linux/PC.  Roughly, you put in n 
video cards/ports, hook up n/monitors and keyboard/mouse combinations 
and let n users work off of the same computer.  Given spare CPU 
capacity (say, with a dual-core chip) you add users for the cost of a 
RAM stick.  With dual-head cards you ought to be able to server a dozen 
'cafe stations' off of one 'server-class' computer.

Sounds like an 'Internet Cafe in a Box' to me for someone sufficiently 
motivated to market such a product.

Now there's a significant linux benefit.

-Bill

-----
Bill McGonigle, Owner           Work: 603.448.4440
BFC Computing, LLC              Home: 603.448.1668
bill at bfccomputing.com           Cell: 603.252.2606
http://www.bfccomputing.com/    Page: 603.442.1833
Blog: http://blog.bfccomputing.com/
VCard: http://bfccomputing.com/vcard/bill.vcf


--__--__--

Message: 8
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 10:26:02 -0500
From: Ben Scott <dragonhawk at gmail.com>
To: gnhlug-discuss at mail.gnhlug.org
Subject: Re: Help me avoid Exchange

  Some general comments...

  Cost: Exchange is expensive.  Typically, you need a license for the
Exchange server, a license for the Windows Server, a client license
for Exchange, a client license for Windows Server, a license for
anti-virus on Exchange, a client license for AV, a backup software
license, and goodness knows what else if you have more third-party
software.  It also tends to eat computrons (RAM, CPU, disk) faster
then Cyrus.

  That being said, if the IT department already pays for all of that,
the cost issues evaporate.  That sounds like what Mr. VP is saying:
Why are we paying for email when we could get it "for free"?  If it's
IT's problem, then it doesn't matter *what* they're running on the
server.

  Security: I've never seen a properly administered Exchange server
get "owned" or anything like that.  The security issues are all on the
client side.

  Exception: OWA (Outlook Web Access) is a big exposure, because
you've got to open an inside-all-the-firewalls Exchange server running
IIS to the public Internet.  Even if you use a dedicated front-end OWA
box, you still need all the Microsoft RPC open to the back-end box. 
Ack.  If you *must* run OWA, I suggest putting some kind of
intermediate guardian box between it and the Internet.  But again,
this is IT's problem.

  Backup/restore: Expensive and cumbersome.  You have to backup and
restore the entire Information Store (Exchange database) as a whole. 
You can't properly backup or restore a single mailbox.  To restore a
single mailbox, you have to restore onto an alternate server.  
Deleted item retention can help this a lot, but it's not the same. 
But again, that's IT's problem.

  The point that Dan Jenkins raises WRT storage demands is a good one.
 Exchange storage tends to "cost more" then Unix mail storage.  This
is especially true if you're on Exchange Standard, which has a 16 GB
limit (or 75 GB for Exch 2003 Std).  If you hit that, you have to drop
significant cash on a license upgrade.

  That being said, one thing Exchange does bring to the table is SIS
(Single Instance Storage).  If one luser mails a 50 MB PowerPoint file
to everybody in the company, Exchange only stores one copy of the
file.  Depending on your usage patterns, that may make a big
difference, or none at all.

  The best advice I can give to Paul is to have somebody (maybe the
most picky/demanding user) give IMAP-on-Exchange a go on a trial
basis.  If it works for him/her, and nobody in IT complains about
their usage, then Mr. VP is prolly right in saying "Make it not our
problem".  OTOH, this may uncover some aspect of your specific
environment that makes Exchange a bad choice.

-- Ben

--__--__--

Message: 9
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 11:13:34 -0500
From: Brian Chabot <brian at datasquire.net>
Organization: Dynamic Network Services (DynDNS)
To: GNHLUG <gnhlug-discuss at mail.gnhlug.org>
Subject: Re: Advocacy - Was: Re: Window dressings - a maddog story (Was:
Any
 Opinions on SuSE 10.0 vs other Distros)

Bill McGonigle wrote:

> Roughly, you put in n video cards/ports, hook up n/monitors and
> keyboard/mouse combinations and let n users work off of the same
> computer.  Given spare CPU capacity (say, with a dual-core chip) you
> add users for the cost of a RAM stick.  With dual-head cards you ought
> to be able to server a dozen 'cafe stations' off of one 'server-class'
> computer.


Sounds like something I saw in a catalog a few years ago for Windoze. 

The only problems I can see are where do you plug in the keyboard and
mouse (assuming ps/2 rather than usb or how do you configure it if usb)
... and how long can you get the cabloes for this hydra?

> Sounds like an 'Internet Cafe in a Box' to me for someone sufficiently
> motivated to market such a product. 


Hmm.... I love the idea of the internet cafe, but they never seem to
have caught on in the US. 

I can see it now...

"The Happy Hydra Penguin Gourmet Internet Cafe"...

Brian

--__--__--

Message: 10
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 11:17:31 -0500
From: Brian Chabot <brian at datasquire.net>
Organization: Dynamic Network Services (DynDNS)
To: GNHLUG <gnhlug-discuss at mail.gnhlug.org>
Subject: X memory leak?

(Take 2 from the right email address this time...)

On my work computer, I noticed things moving a bit slow... so I run top
to figure out what might be taking up resources...

top - 11:00:47 up 23 days, 14:53, 18 users,  load average: 0.97, 1.30,
1.07
Tasks: 115 total,   3 running, 111 sleeping,   1 stopped,   0 zombie
Cpu(s): 10.3% us,  2.1% sy,  0.2% ni, 86.8% id,  0.6% wa,  0.0% hi,
0.0% si
Mem:   1035408k total,  1018328k used,    17080k free,    86904k buffers
Swap:  1124508k total,   865048k used,   259460k free,   189140k cached

  PID USER      PR  NI  VIRT  RES  SHR S %CPU %MEM    TIME+
COMMAND
 4343 root      16   0  946m 152m  35m R 84.3 15.1   2750:11
X

*BLINK*BLINK*

Huh?

Why the heck would X be taking up almost a gig of total memory?

I'm running Mandriva 2006 and xorg-x11-6.9-1.cvs20050915.2mdk on a
relatively beefy system with a gig of RAM... Using Enlightenment for the
desktop and running Mozilla, Konqueror, xmms, and a bunch of Eterms, and
4 epplets on 4 virtual desktops.  X should NOT take that much virtual
memory.

Anyone have any ideas?

Brian



--__--__--

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