Gentoo (was: ARTICLE - ESR gives up on Fedora)

[Ben Scott]

On 2/26/07, Bill Mullen <moon at lunarhub.com> wrote:
>> suggested in the past that something like a cross between BSD ports
> > and RPM might be a good solution for many problems.  Something that,
> > with one simple command, could automatically download all the needed
> > source packages, configure, build, and install them, without scary
> > looking terminal windows or the need to edit configuration files by
> > hand.
>
> Sounds like Gentoo's "Portage" system, accessible either via the CLI or by way of
> any of a number of GUI frontends, would appeal to you:

  I just *knew* someone was going to reply with "Portage".  :)

  I was interested in Portage when I first heard about it.  Still am,
in the sense that I'm a geek and like try to different things.  But
every single Gentoo user I've ever encountered states that editing
config files and running things from scary-looking terminal windows is
pretty much a given on that distribution.  No problem for me, but it
pretty much kills it for the PDOTLREBTWWLLAPACTT[1] crowd.  Maybe I've
just been talking to the wrong Gentoo users; I dunno.

[1] People doing ordinary tasks, like reading email, browsing the web,
writing letters, looking at pictures, and calculating their taxes.

  Gentoo also appeals to me because Gentoo users aren't constantly
harping about how perfect Gentoo is.  ;-)

> Slower, definitely, but on recent equipment sporting dual-core CPUs and acres of RAM,
> it's not as pokey as one might expect it to be.

  Build GNOME or KDE from source, and let me know how long it takes.  ;-)

> Gentoo also has prebuilt packages available for many apps ...

  Okay.  I'm sure that is great for Gentoo and Gentoo users.  But
doesn't that kind of defeat the whole "building everything from
source" idea?

> You could install something like GNOME prebuilt and then recompile it in the
> background for your specific system's configuration ...

  Now *that's* a neat idea.

> When reporting a bug with an ebuild, one merely also includes the USE flags that are in
> use on the system having the problem, and that's usually sufficient to account for these
> sorts of variations.

  The problem with that approach is that (1) most software is barely
tested at all, and (2) when it is tested, the testing usually consists
of running unit tests against various possible SCM scenarios.  (This
is a fancy way of saying the developer installs it on a couple
different computers.)  When building everything from source like that,
the number of SCM scenarios approaches infinity.

  Plus, say I mail the package maintainer, and he looks at my "USE
flags", and he says, "Huh.  Not sure what your problem is, but your
system is completely different from my system."  One of us is going to
have to drastically change our build environments to debug the issue,
no?

> Going back to ESR's beefs, Portage is also not immune to the occasional problem with
> dependencies ...

  I find most dependency problems fall into one of four categories:

(1) Normal dependency.  A needs B and C.  Tools like apt-get and yum solve this.
(2) Package maintainer screwed up the dependency definitions.  GIGO.
(3) Building environment differs from install environment; package
manger properly refuses to install potentially incompatible package;
user is frustrated.
(4) Building environment differs from install environment; package
manger properly refuses to install potentially incompatible package;
user overrides package manager; system starts to fall apart.

  The second category certainly plays a role -- sometimes a big one.
People make mistakes; that's a given.  As most package maintainers are
people, it follows that packages will sometimes have bogus dependency
information, and that can quickly cascade to Big Trouble if it's a key
package.

> ... it has a few powerful features (such as slots, arch keywords and package masking)

  Ohh, now those sound interesting.  I have no idea what they are, but
they sound interesting.  :-)

  Would you be interested in giving a LUG presentation on Gentoo,
Portage,  emerge, etc?  Or have you already, and I just missed it?  :)

-- Ben