[GNHLUG] Re: Hosstraders Dead, but NEARFest Lives!!

[Ben Scott]

On 3/20/07, Bill McGonigle <bill at bfccomputing.com> wrote:
>> - It puts most of the burden on the operators, not the perpetrators
>
> I'm much more afraid of the legal system than losing $20

  From the standpoint of the operators, that doesn't matter.  Consider:

I = You bring a CRT in
P = You pay the deposit
O = You bring the CRT out
C = You get caught with an unregistered CRT

I P O C Result
--------------------------------------
F - - - They incur no costs
T T T - They pay no disposal fee
T T F - Deposit covers disposal fee
T F T - They incur no costs
T F T T They incur no costs
T F T F They incur the same costs
--------------------------------------

  The only case where they incur significant costs is for when someone
dumps illegally without getting caught, a problem they face anyway,
and (as mentioned previously) is a lot easier to do if you're not on a
public fairground you paid $20 to get admission to, but on some back
road (for free).

  I suppose there is another consideration, in that a lot of people
aren't very logical, and might go to the trouble of smuggling in
something to dump just for spite.

  The only other potential drawback I can think of (aside from the
near neighborhood dumping issue mentioned in my message to Bill
Sconce) is if the deposit policy lowers attendance to a point where
the lost revenue exceeds the disposal costs they would otherwise
incur.  The likelihood of that, I have insufficient information to
even speculate on.

> I'd also be very worried about scamming.  I could bring in 5 CRT's
> under the pile of crap and/or under a blanket, and head out with $100.

  See my message to Bill Sconce with regards to accounting.  This is
easily solved.

>> - Some CRTs may not have a make and unit ID (this *is* a hamfest)
>
> I've never seen such units, but it's possible ...

  I guess you've never been to Hosstraders, then.

  CRT != Consumer electronics TV or computer monitor.

>> - The operators now *have* to comb the trash to find dumped CRTs
>
> They'll still have to do that, otherwise they wouldn't need the $20.

  Ehhh... you're probably right.  I'll give you this one.

>> - If the perps are never caught, the operators are stuck with the cost
>
> For illegal dumping this is likely to be true, for units that are
> registered, identity is established a-priori, so they don't need to
> be caught, just served notice.

  Are you familiar with the nature of the justice system in this
country at all?  :)

>>  Again, if you can afford to a haul a CRT to Deerfield for a hamfest,
>> you can afford a $20 deposit for two days.
>
> I could probably bring 5 complete working systems to said hamfest, loaded
> with linux, ready for anybody to take home for $30 (or $50 - $20 at the door) ...

  Or the same without CRTs for sale.  Not quite as neat a package, of course.

> ... I'm arguing academically ...

  Is there another kind?  ;-)

  Well, there's just contradiction, I suppose...

> It's a fair point.  If I were the organizers I'd raise the ticket
> price $2 and assume people will be dumping.

  I suspect raising the admission price might be the best option.

  There are a couple of complications, though:

  (1) Some localities or venues may not like the idea of being a toxic
waste transfer point, by design or in practice.  This "CRT ban" may
well be driven by such.

  (2) Combine a little toxic waste with a lot of non-toxic waste, and
you get a lot of toxic waste.  Disposal costs may be more than one
might expect.

  The addition of a designated waste disposal point to expedite those
who would otherwise dump in the regular trash may help #2 but conflict
with #1.

-- 
"One day I feel I'm ahead of the wheel / And the next it's rolling over me"
                                                  -- Rush, "Far Cry"